Re: [escepticos] Re: Aznar sabe cómo salir de la crisis (era Re: [escepticos] El paro supera los cuatro millones de personas)

[Pedro J. Hdez]

El día 28 de abril de 2009 14:17, Felipe Martínez Pastor
<felipe.egrupos en gmail.com> escribió:
> Buenas.
>

>
> Y se quede tan ancho. Este no ha dibujado un y=e^x en su vida.
>
> En suma, que poca credibilidad me ofrece un blog que va a criticar un
> documental llamado "money as debt" y lo que critica es la malatraducción
> "el dinero es deuda".

Leerse la página de la reserva federal puede ser un auténtico coñazo,
pero es allí donde puedes contrarrestar los malos argumentos. En el
link que te recomendaba puedes leer una explicación magnífica con
referencias

Copio y pego de http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/part-three/

Esto es lo que se dice en todos estos documentales

"So what is a Central Bank? A Central Bank is an institution that
produces the currency of an entire nation. Based on historical
precedent, two specific powers are inherent in central banking
practice. The control of interest rates, and the control of the money
supply, or inflation. A central bank does not simply supply a
government's economy with money, it loans it to them at interest.
Then, through the use of increasing and decreasing the supply of
money, the central bank regulates the value of the currency being
issued. It is critical to understand that the entire structure of this
system can only produce one thing in the long run: debt.

It doesn't take a lot of ingenuity to figure this scam out. For every
single dollar produced by the central bank is loaned at interest, that
means every single dollar produced is actually the dollar plus a
certain percent of debt based on that dollar. And since the central
bank has a monopoly over the production of the currency for the entire
country, and they loan each dollar out with immediate debt attached to
it, where does the money to pay for the debt come from? It can only
come from the central bank again. Which means the central bank has to
perpetually increase its money supply to temporarily cover the
outstanding debt created, which in turn, since that new money is
loaned out at interest as well, creates even more debt! The end result
of this system without fail is slavery. For it is impossible for the
government and thus the public, to ever come out of the
self-generating debt."

Esta es la verdadera explicación

"The primary reason a central banking system was implemented is
because "free banking systems", that is ones that are not centralized,
were unstable. Between 1837 and 1862, a time when we had free banking,
banks issued their own bank notes, which were backed against their own
gold and silver, and states regulated reserve requirements, interest
rates on loans and deposits, and so forth.[5] The problem with this
system is it created a lot of unstable banks. In fact, banks would
only last around 5 years before going bankrupt because they could no
longer redeem the notes of customers. A third of banks failed during
the free banking era.[6]

Imagine going to a bank today, and them telling you that your paper
money is actually worthless, you can't buy or sell anything with it.
Of course, the movie implies this later by saying the Federal Reserve
System creates worthless money, but if that was the case, I don't see
why we haven't had massive market crashes and wide-spread instability
as we did prior to the modern system.

Contrary to the film, the Federal Reserve does not increasingly create
debt. The total debt mounted each year by the Federal Reserve is only
about 7% of the total national debt. The Federal Reserve rebates its
net earnings to the Treasury every year, thus the money borrowed from
the Federal Reserve has no net interest obligation for the
treasury[7].

If we travel back to a time when banks made their own currency, we
also had the problem of going to multiple banks. I imagine if banks
still did that, we'd probably wind up with a bank monopoly anyway,
because people would want the convenience of being able to use the
same money everywhere, especially businesses. Instead the Central
Banking system allows businesses and people to deal less with
converting all the tons of different bank notes they receive, and
allows them to more easily save their money in cash or coin form, or
in a bank backed up by the FDIC."

[5] J. Lawrence Broz; The International Origins of the Federal Reserve
System Cornell University Press. 1997.
[6] Myron T. Herrick "The Panic of 1907 and Some of Its Lessons",
Annals of the American Academy of Political and Social Science, vol.
31 (Jan.-June 1908)
[7] Mishkin, Frederic S. (2007). The Economics of Money, Banking, and
Financial Markets (Alternate Edition). Boston: Addison Wesley, 386.
ISBN 0-321-42177-9.
"

Lo que dice aquí puedes contrastarlo y ampliarlo en este artículo
http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/MoneySupply.html

Pero la manera más sencilla en que contrasté yo la información es, muy
bien, si esta gente dice que la deuda crece indefinidamente, vamos a
ver la evolución de la deuda estadounidense. Según en este FAQ de
GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE sobre la deuda, en la página 18
puedes ver la figura 5
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d04485sp.pdf

Con internet se coge antes a un mentiroso que a un cojo y esta peña
llanamente miente, algunos más sutilmente que otros. Aquí tienes otro
ejemplo
http://www.webofdebt.com/
Miráte la biografía de la autora del libro y dime si no estamos ante
desvaríos conspiranoicos. Es lo que hay.


saludos

Pedro J.



>
> Saludos.
>
> Felipe
>
>
> Adria Comos escribió:
>> Saludos!
>>
>> Tengo un compañero "anarca" en el trabajo que me recomendó vivamente "El dinero es deuda".  Lo ví, y me pareció que tenía cierto tufillo conspiranoico (empezando por la falacia de la "conservación del dinero" que nombra Pedro).  Me quedó más confirmado después de pillar algún libro de macroeconomía -Samuelson y demás- e investigar un poco por ahí (siempre dentro de mi ignorancia en el tema).
>>
>> Por si alguien quiere echarle un vistazo, estos son unos "debunkings" de los "pseudo-documentales" estos ("El dinero es deuda", "Zeitgeist", "Zeitgeist Addendum" y demás) que ví por la red.  Creo que están bastante bien.
>>
>> http://natsufan.livejournal.com/32532.html#cutid1
>> http://chemazdamundi.wordpress.com/2008/11/02/el-dinero-no-es-deuda-la-deuda-publica/
>>
>> Aquí hay alguno de los mitos sobre la Reserva Federal (en los que se suelen apoyar esta gente) explicados...
>> http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/1154/flaherty.html
>>
>> Saludos!
>>
>>
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-- 
Pedro J. Hdez
Ecos del futuro
http://ecos.blogalia.com